I have been trying to get my partner into Pathfinder 2nd edition, and they do seem taken with it, however he’s been having some issues lately with PF2E. Notably, online. The more he gets into PF2E, the more hate he sees for 5E. He’s been playing 5E for years now and has invested a lot of time and love into the game, and to see it bad-mouthed online by a ton of people either because they think PF2E is better, or they don’t like the system, or because of the company that manages it, has been disheartening to him as of late.

He told me today that he might just stop playing altogether after he’s finished with his games because of the hate he’s been seeing online, and I would hate for him to drop something he loves and has invested so much time into because of some online hate comments coming from another community in an act of internet tribalism.

I tried telling him that people disliked D&D4E when it came out for various reasons, yet people still play it today, and that when I started playing 5E, 4E had the reputation of being the game that everyone hates, but he’s still focused on how people will bad-mouth 5E when they really have no need to. One example I can remember him seeing (and before I bring it up, I understand Reddit’s culture, but the large amount of forum posts are going to be on Reddit, especially for a large and insular hobby like TTRPGs) was on a Reddit thread of someone asking what an analogous spell or ability would be to some spell in 5E and one person commented something to the effect of “well, you could try using this spell/ability, but you won’t get the same effect as you would in 5E because 5E is just for auto-win stuff that doesn’t have the player trying hard” (moderately paraphrasing, but I think my point is conveyed well here).

Personally, I like PF2E over 5E, but I’ll still play both, mostly because most people will play 5E and not want to try and learn a new system, especially if it’s one that has a reputation of having exponentially more rules than the one they already know and are comfortable with. Does anyone have any tips for how I can help my partner here?

  • partiallycyber@ttrpg.network
    8·
    6 months ago

    Agreed that there are folks who are toxic towards 5E in PF2E forums and that that’s not ideal. Your partner is absolutely correct about that.

    The thing to keep in mind is that that’s not a solvable problem, at its root. Complaining about toxicity in online forums is like complaining that rain is wet - you can’t stop it from being so, no matter how much you wish things were different. Which is not meant to be dismissive of your partner’s accurate observation but moreso shift his mindset from “this is unfixable” to “what can I do to make my experience better?”

    So if we assume that online toxicity is something your partner or you are unable to do anything about, what are things you actually can do?

    Mainly, your partner can address how he reacts to that toxicity. Take on the mindset that, “These are internet strangers! Their opinions aren’t truth!” And I’m not trying to say that he should completely ignore these people; some of them likely have valid opinions. In fact, he both can and should do his own research and, most importantly, develop his own opinions.

    Someone says that “5E is just for auto-win stuff”? Okay, does that match his experience? Has he ever been challenged in his games? Seen a PC die? If he has then maybe that random internet stranger is wrong.

    Someone says that WotC is a shitty company? Okay, do some research. Damn, they hired the Pinkertons to go after someone? Maybe they’re not actually a company your partner wants want to give money to.

    And so on. Maybe the simplest way to do this is, when your partner tells you, “I read someone being mean about 5e” you just ask, “Do you agree with them?”

    • Cass.Forest@beehaw.orgOP
      2·
      6 months ago

      I mean I know the Internet is often a toxic place, but I don’t think telling him “oh well the Internet is just toxic, deal with it” would help the situation. I suppose one thing I’m looking for here is potentially an alternative to Reddit for searching up questions about Pathfinder such that he would avoid D&D comparisons in a negative light (I say a negative light just because Pathfinder was born from 3.5E, so comparisons are going to happen regardless because the two games are related).

      Maybe the simplest way to do this is, when your partner tells you, “I read someone being mean about 5e” you just ask, “Do you agree with them?”

      I mean I know he doesn’t, mostly because I’ve known him for a little over two years at this point.

      I think the main issue is that people online are stating their opinion as fact or talking about PF2E and ignoring their biases against 5E. Asking people online to check their biases is a tall task I suppose, but I guess that goes back to my main question of this post of finding a knowledge center for Pathfinder that doesn’t include negativity towards 5E.

      • partiallycyber@ttrpg.network
        3·
        6 months ago

        I don’t think he should “just deal with it” though: I think he should critically engage with negative comments, form his own opinions, and then trust those opinions over those of an Internet stranger.

        Which maybe is functionally equivalent to “just deal with it”? Feels different to me.

        Also I went to the Pathfinder2E subreddit, ran some basic searches meant to evoke comparisons to 5E, and grabbed the top result for each: “how do attacks work” ( https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/BBYlzCwVDl ), “advantage in PF2E” ( https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/Yna9TGzAOu ), “warlock equivalent” ( https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/umQ1Et6xhf ).

        There are NO comments in ANY of those posts bashing 5e. On the contrary, there are dozens of comments that are all helpful, encouraging, and supportive.

        So if you’re looking for a place that is generally positive and welcoming to new players, r/Pathfinder2E has been pretty good in my experience! It’s not perfect, of course. If you’re looking for a knowledge center that a) has people posting and talking and b) never ever ever portrays 5E negatively I don’t think that exists.

        Anyways, hope your partner continues to enjoy ttrpgs regardless of the system!

        • Cass.Forest@beehaw.orgOP
          1·
          6 months ago

          The only thing is the comments that he’s found have been from that subreddit…

          I know it’s not perfect, but it seems to be pretty prevalent based on the things my partner is searching (as he’s coming upon the negative comparisons a lot).

      • termus@beehaw.orgEnglish
        3·
        6 months ago

        Have them check out the youtuber nonat1s. He goes over a lot of different rules for Pathfinder in a very non-toxic way.