I think you’re underestimating how fucked the Tories are in the next election. They’re going to get wiped out. If ever there was a time to vote your conscience, it’s this election because the Tories aren’t getting back in.
IMO you should vote with whoever most closely aligned with your views in most cases anyway. This is definitely one of those cases. Labour have the centre on lock but have abandoned the left, so the results should show that. If everyone one the left votes Labour in fear then it seems like everything is hunky-dory when it’s absolutely not.
The ideal realistic situation would be a hung parliament with a Labour largest party, opening the door for electoral reform debates. Preferably with a few parties (Greens, Binface etc.) with a decent percentage but no representation, which would further point out the need for reform, and also point out the lack of positive support for Labour.
No not at all. You should vote for the party you like the most, rather than voting against the party you like the least. If there are no parties you like, spoil your ballot. But absolutely vote.
In practice, the Tories will only get wiped out if Labour win lots of seats. There’s no way you can realistically engineer your ideal situation with your one vote. If you want to get the Tories out, which we both do, then nearly everywhere in the country the answer is to vote Labour. We really can’t fuck around, here. Polls have been way out before and the Tories are doing what they can to suppress the vote. If we mess this up, we really could be stuck with the Tories for another five years.
Couldn’t Labour form a coalition with the left-leaning parties? I am not well-versed in British politics but I think that even if Labour doesn’t win a big majority, the Tories could still be shellacked with the combined votes for everyone else, right?
If that’s not the case, please explain because I am genuinely curious
In the UK, we vote by constituency. A party could actually come second in term of votes nationally but still win more constituencies, and thus have more MPs (as happened in 1951 and in February 1974). This has historically been a problem for Labour: They get lots of votes in safe seats, with MPs winning 60% of the vote or more, but then they lose more narrowly elsewhere, leading to lots of Labour votes translating into not a lot of Labour MPs.
The second factor is that the left vote tends to be ‘split’ in the UK. If you have a constituency where the parties standing are:
Conservative
Green
Labour
Lib Dem
Reform
You have a situation where the ‘left’ vote might split three ways (to Lab, LD and Green), but the ‘right’ vote splits only two ways (to Con and Reform). So, you could get a result like:
Con: 33%
Lab: 32%
Lib Dem: 13%
Green: 12%
Reform: 10%
In that scenario, the majority of the voters (57%) have voted for left-leaning parties, and only a third have voted Conservative – but the Conservatives would win the seat.
There are a lot of constituencies where the outcome looks broadly like what I’ve described. That’s why I’m saying that the best way to beat the Tories is almost always to vote Labour. Of course, people might have other reasons they don’t want to vote Labour (I certainly don’t agree with everything they do, that would be weird), but if the priority is ‘get the Tories out’, the answer is to vote Labour.
Okay, I see now, for some reason my mind completely skipped elections for individual MPs and thought only about the full parliament. I’ve wondered why, when people seem to loathe the Tory PMs who have been coming through the revolving door for the past several years, why people keep voting them in as a majority, but now it makes perfect sense. This is how even a parliamentary system with multiple parties gets wrecked, FPTP voting is always the wrong answer. Sorry for being dense and overlooking what should be an obvious answer.
Yes, but bear in mind that at the last election, the majority of the British public voted against the Tories on most issues, yet we have a huge Tory majority. So it doesn’t work. Our democracy doesn’t work.
If you think Labour are shit, don’t vote for them. If that causes the Tories to get back in then that can’t be your fault. You shouldn’t have to have a deep understanding of the political machine to vote effectively. Vote for the party you want.
I broadly agree with you. It’s just that there are a lot of people here saying ‘(1) I want the Tories out but (2) I won’t vote Labour’ and my point is that (1) and (2) are, for almost every voter, mutually exclusive. As we’ve learned over the last few years, you really can’t have your cake and eat it!
Thinking Starmer will offer you anything different is the epitome of apathy, voting neither is the exact opposite (and also is a vote against conservatives, which you would know if you’d actually read anything in the link which I suspect you didn’t even click).
Maybe try actually understanding the system you’re blindly participating in and advocating for because you believe in the illusion of choice those in power have presented you with (don’t worry, I won’t hold my breath):
This is a great discussion for the long term, but conservative rule must end. Labour is best positioned to actually beat them and are the better option.
This is it. I’m Labour all the way and in a safe seat, but if I lived elsewhere I would have to seriously consider voting Lib Dem, Green, SNP or Plaid Cymru (or, really, anyone bar Reform!) if they were best-placed to beat the Tories. But the fact is that, as you say, for very nearly everywhere, Labour is the obvious choice to get the Conservatives out!
They’ve beaten themselves. Only the lizards are still voting Tory. They’re fucked. Your dusty argument of having to vote for the only other biggest party is useless in this case. Vote for who you want. The Tories aren’t getting in
vote against the conservatives. Why on earth would you want to risk another 4 years of this?
don’t give in to apathy. the older conservative voters won’t. it’s always like this before an election. a concerted effort to increase apathy.
I think you’re underestimating how fucked the Tories are in the next election. They’re going to get wiped out. If ever there was a time to vote your conscience, it’s this election because the Tories aren’t getting back in.
IMO you should vote with whoever most closely aligned with your views in most cases anyway. This is definitely one of those cases. Labour have the centre on lock but have abandoned the left, so the results should show that. If everyone one the left votes Labour in fear then it seems like everything is hunky-dory when it’s absolutely not. The ideal realistic situation would be a hung parliament with a Labour largest party, opening the door for electoral reform debates. Preferably with a few parties (Greens, Binface etc.) with a decent percentage but no representation, which would further point out the need for reform, and also point out the lack of positive support for Labour.
most aligned with my views is giving the Tories a spanking of a lifetime
Hohoho yes, I can get behind that.
Hang on so your logic is we should not vote because the Tories are going to get kicked out anyway.
How will that happen if no one votes?
No not at all. You should vote for the party you like the most, rather than voting against the party you like the least. If there are no parties you like, spoil your ballot. But absolutely vote.
In practice, the Tories will only get wiped out if Labour win lots of seats. There’s no way you can realistically engineer your ideal situation with your one vote. If you want to get the Tories out, which we both do, then nearly everywhere in the country the answer is to vote Labour. We really can’t fuck around, here. Polls have been way out before and the Tories are doing what they can to suppress the vote. If we mess this up, we really could be stuck with the Tories for another five years.
Couldn’t Labour form a coalition with the left-leaning parties? I am not well-versed in British politics but I think that even if Labour doesn’t win a big majority, the Tories could still be shellacked with the combined votes for everyone else, right?
If that’s not the case, please explain because I am genuinely curious
In the UK, we vote by constituency. A party could actually come second in term of votes nationally but still win more constituencies, and thus have more MPs (as happened in 1951 and in February 1974). This has historically been a problem for Labour: They get lots of votes in safe seats, with MPs winning 60% of the vote or more, but then they lose more narrowly elsewhere, leading to lots of Labour votes translating into not a lot of Labour MPs.
The second factor is that the left vote tends to be ‘split’ in the UK. If you have a constituency where the parties standing are:
You have a situation where the ‘left’ vote might split three ways (to Lab, LD and Green), but the ‘right’ vote splits only two ways (to Con and Reform). So, you could get a result like:
In that scenario, the majority of the voters (57%) have voted for left-leaning parties, and only a third have voted Conservative – but the Conservatives would win the seat.
There are a lot of constituencies where the outcome looks broadly like what I’ve described. That’s why I’m saying that the best way to beat the Tories is almost always to vote Labour. Of course, people might have other reasons they don’t want to vote Labour (I certainly don’t agree with everything they do, that would be weird), but if the priority is ‘get the Tories out’, the answer is to vote Labour.
Okay, I see now, for some reason my mind completely skipped elections for individual MPs and thought only about the full parliament. I’ve wondered why, when people seem to loathe the Tory PMs who have been coming through the revolving door for the past several years, why people keep voting them in as a majority, but now it makes perfect sense. This is how even a parliamentary system with multiple parties gets wrecked, FPTP voting is always the wrong answer. Sorry for being dense and overlooking what should be an obvious answer.
Yes, but bear in mind that at the last election, the majority of the British public voted against the Tories on most issues, yet we have a huge Tory majority. So it doesn’t work. Our democracy doesn’t work.
If you think Labour are shit, don’t vote for them. If that causes the Tories to get back in then that can’t be your fault. You shouldn’t have to have a deep understanding of the political machine to vote effectively. Vote for the party you want.
I broadly agree with you. It’s just that there are a lot of people here saying ‘(1) I want the Tories out but (2) I won’t vote Labour’ and my point is that (1) and (2) are, for almost every voter, mutually exclusive. As we’ve learned over the last few years, you really can’t have your cake and eat it!
Thinking Starmer will offer you anything different is the epitome of apathy, voting neither is the exact opposite (and also is a vote against conservatives, which you would know if you’d actually read anything in the link which I suspect you didn’t even click).
Maybe try actually understanding the system you’re blindly participating in and advocating for because you believe in the illusion of choice those in power have presented you with (don’t worry, I won’t hold my breath):
https://truthout.org/articles/fascism-is-possible-not-in-spite-of-liberal-capitalism-but-because-of-it/
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
This is a great discussion for the long term, but conservative rule must end. Labour is best positioned to actually beat them and are the better option.
This is it. I’m Labour all the way and in a safe seat, but if I lived elsewhere I would have to seriously consider voting Lib Dem, Green, SNP or Plaid Cymru (or, really, anyone bar Reform!) if they were best-placed to beat the Tories. But the fact is that, as you say, for very nearly everywhere, Labour is the obvious choice to get the Conservatives out!
They’ve beaten themselves. Only the lizards are still voting Tory. They’re fucked. Your dusty argument of having to vote for the only other biggest party is useless in this case. Vote for who you want. The Tories aren’t getting in
Eww